Edward Dain ([info]edwarddain) wrote in [info]nonfluffybdsm,

Poly is the new black.

What's that you say? Not shibari? Not some fucking machines or some other toy?

Nope.

It's the term "poly" - and it is generally colloquially used as short-hand for "polyamory" (though occasionally for "polyfuckery" - and when that's the case I have no problem with the term). Go to any freaking BDSM conference and look at the schedule of seminars - it seems that you are going to find one on polyamory. The Scene is so full of people calling themselves "poly" that to be monogamous is almost a stigma, a shame, it's almost as bad as being a Republican...

Now, I am writing this as polyamorous person, and I think that there's a large group of people in the greater Scene for whom the term is entirely applicable, and in fact the Scene has historically been non-monogamous. But the ascendency of the the term "polyamorous" as the current booty-call buzzword goes back to that most excellent of books The Ethical Slut by Dossie Easton and Catherine A. Liszt, published in 1997. Now, they quoted the Deborah M. Anapol's book The Love Without Limits which had been published in 1992 (it's now reprinted as Polyamory: The New Love Without Limits: Secrets of Sustainable Intimate Relationships) as part of their desire to build a new paradigm of sex-positive sexual discourse and behaviour. Anapol drew the term (and I've yet to find anyone who can trace it back further) from Oberon and Morning Glory Zell, a pair of pagans who coined the term to replace the awkward phrase of "responsible nonmonogamy." This was in Morning Glory's 1990 article entitled A Bouquet of Lovers.

The term means multiple loves that's the linguistic breakdown of the word (even if it is mixing Greek and Latin) and it refers to multiple relationships, often with a rather broad and inclusive vision of what a "relationship" is, but it's still a (perhaps the) key point. But what we see in the Scene for the most part recently is the use of the term to mean "I'm can have sex with more than one person." This in turn leads to such nonsensical statements as "I'm poly, but my partner isn't."

Excuse me? What in the fuck are you talking about? Is that like being a little bit pregnant? Or is it more like straight guys who suck cock, take it up the ass, and secretly enjoy LOGO but insist that they aren't gay (or even Bi)? Your partner may not have any other partners, but they are certainly non-mongamous... And that begs the question of if you aren't interested in just sex, how the hell do you plan on having a relationship with you that doesn't impact or effect their other partner?

Which gets me back around to the initial complaint. "Polyamory" and "Non-Monogamy" are not synonymous. Mostly because in our society we so often confuse the friction of body parts in a sexually lubricated scenario with either (A) Love, (B) Commitment, or (C) a Relationship. We treat sex (and love, but that's a whole different rant) like a commodity in an economy of scarcity, as well as an activity that is inappropriate to engage in merely for it's own pleasurable reward.

So perhaps I'm just a poly-snob, but I'm also an advocate and an educator - so let's get it straight.

Screw whomever you like, however you like, whenever you like. Have open, closed, fluid-bonded, or committed networks. But Polyamory is a signifier of relationships, not just casual safer ethical sex. If you like, you can look at non-monogamy as a spectrum of fidelity. On the one side you have Sport-Fucking, then Swinging, then Open-Relationships which is probably the border of a huge grey area that is simply "not-monogamy," then the realm of polyamorous networks when leads into at the opposite end of the behaviour spectrum - the group marriages, the Slavery Households, etc. Another thing to keep in mind is that you can be in a polyamorous network, with allowances for casual sex outside of the network, and even engage in some serious anonymous sport-fucking one day. Polyamory is a description of the type of relationship you have with specific partners, as well as a philosophical statement on love and sex and relationships. If you want to say, "I'm poly, but I'm not looking for anything more than a casual partner tonight..." That's fine also. Bravo! Not only are you being honest in what you are looking for, but you are making a wonderful statement on love and relationships!

So, if you want to have sex with more than one person - Have at it! But don't dress up a perfectly appropriate desire and activity in a blanket of a socially-acceptable (to one degree or another) term that means something else. In my experience what most people are really scared of is not a partner having sex with other people (save for fears of STDs), but instead the loss of the love of the partner. Why don't we work to separate the physical pleasure from the idea of emotional intimacy. The two are wonderful when combined, but there are thousands of therapists who make an excellent living helping people come to terms with the fact that they aren't the same thing. This confabulation is probably one of the things that screws up more teenagers and people in their early twenties (and later in life for that matter) as they wend their way through learning the skills of good relationships - or try to learn better skills for the relationship(s) that they are in. Sex is great, love is great, relationships are great, intimacy is great - but none of them are guaranteed to be found together.

Pax.

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[info]museumfreak

October 23 2005, 00:44:22 UTC 6 years ago

LJ-CUT PLEASE!!!!!!!

[info]edwarddain

October 23 2005, 00:50:40 UTC 6 years ago

Done.

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]fuzzybutchkins

October 23 2005, 03:02:48 UTC 6 years ago

great statement, though a question... WHY has this invaded the BDSM community?

also, can you email me? i have an unrelated question. mlmatthews AT comcast DOT net.

[info]edwarddain

October 23 2005, 16:11:26 UTC 6 years ago

Email sent.

Speculating to a degree?

There's an anthropology or sociology dissertation in this topic for somebody btw...

I think it's a direct result of a couple of contrary forces. The rise of public clubs and because the kink community was once both so insular and exclusive (as a community), as well as the fact that gay Leather was pre-80's rather "internally promiscuous" (as was gay culture in general) - this is one of the things Jack Rinella and I talked about in passing. My general feel is that Het kink was much the same way, though perhaps not so sexually loose.

So we had a situation where if you had made it into the community, you had managed to build any number of relationships - that was part of the mark of being in the community. People knew you, trusted you, etc. (Or could trust to a degree even if they didn't - even the day, the Leather Bars don't seem to have been as rampantly anonymous as bathhouse culture) Pre-AIDS, this allowed sex or sexual play to be plentiful and within the context of some form of established relationship. And if it didn't - there was no social stigma against the non-monogamous activity because it was the norm.

With AIDS and the rise of the public clubs people backed away from level of open sexuality for awhile but, wonder of wonders, they still wanted to have sex. People will do almost anything and feel guilty later, but get enough of them doing it and eventually you will get a social construct which allows it.

Then we get to the dirty secret of the Neopagan community - a whole heck of alot of them are kinky as hell. Plus you have the alt.culture breeding ground of the West Coast (where all the authors I mentioned have been more or less active) and the ideas and terms will naturally propagate. I've made the argument that the BDSM community is often non-monogamous by nature - the (in my opinion) false assertion that "if we're not having genital sex it's not a relationship" really doesn't pan out in my viewpoint. But people will invariably want to have more sex play, are scared of relationships (either new ones, or losing old ones), and will cast about for any socially acceptable method of justifying the behavior.

That's where Easton and Liszt (who are both great authors and educators whom have done great, great things for the community) have screwed the pooch. If you read The Ethical Slut it comes out and says that as long as you are being ethical and safe, sex is great and you can have as much as you want! (nothing wrong with that) And that this is called polyamory - and that's the assertion I take issue with. Other than this book and the isolated website here and there, pretty much everyone else holds that polyamory is at it's heart about relationships (be they serious or even very casual gf/bf types of things).

So, I'll "blame" them because the average kinkster isn't reading about Neopagan relationships, polyamory in general, or Tantra/Sacred Sexuality - but there's a good chance that they'll pick up a book by Easton and Liszt and read that.

That help?

[info]polydad

5 years ago

[info]edwarddain

5 years ago

[info]fierceawakening

October 23 2005, 03:42:24 UTC 6 years ago

This is really a great post, but I'm kinda confused by one bit:

This in turn leads to such nonsensical statements as "I'm poly, but my partner isn't." Excuse me? .... Your partner may not have any other partners, but they are certainly non-mongamous...

I fell for a guy some years ago who I thought was polyamorous. (It turns out things were a lot more sordid than I thought.) I'm monogamous. I truly liked this fellow and wanted him in my life. I knew he had multiple partners and I read up on what polyamory was and talked to him at great length about what my becoming his partner would involve and require. I decided in the end that his way of loving, at least as he presented it was not something I could or would ever want to mirror, but that I had no deep-seated issues with him having other relationships. I did not have any others; I'm just not a person who's big on doing that. I certainly wouldn't label myself as polyamorous -- as a person who likes, prefers, or is usually open to the idea of dating/loving more than one person.

I'm totally with you on a lot of this rant -- "poly" is trendy and if you're not, you're often seen as a throwback or as someone who would stifle your partners -- but there's no reason at all to suggest I should have identified as poly because I agreed to date someone who was. I am not now, I was not then. I dated someone, and that's all.

[info]tay_en_pointe

October 23 2005, 13:49:17 UTC 6 years ago

i think you kind of make his point, because you chose to not become this person's partner. Even if you are not poly driven, to enter into a partnership with a poly person makes you to an extent poly. You would have to accept that person's needs in order for the partnership to work.
You chose to not do this, and you should be applauded for doing so. You are who you are. Polyamory is not something you can simply turn on or off. Rather its more of the mindset that, IMO, the individual you are involved with, or you yourself, have particular needs that you, or them, might not entirely fulfill. The choice some make is to allow those needs to be sought elsewhere, to make that person more fulfilled, and thereby a happier, and er... more successful partner in the aspects of your relationship.

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]st_andrews_girl

October 23 2005, 05:52:14 UTC 6 years ago

This kind of falls dangerously close to the realm of "You can only call yourself a Dominant or Master if you fall into my definition of such things." While I do agree with a lot of what you said, it really doesn't matter what people call themselves, as long as they are clear about what they want from the people they become involved with, which is why labels in general are a dangerous thing. It's just a one word snippet attempting to describe your philosophy on romantic relationships. So in that sense, describing yourself as "polyamorous" when you are not and not elaborating further to the people that you wish to be involved with is misleading and can be damaging. But someone telling me they're poly means about as much to me as someone telling me they're Irish. I might have a vague, stereotypical idea of what to expect, but that's rarely correct, so I've just learned to ignore it and go on a case-by-case basis. If you get hung up on the labels people use to describe themselves, you can drive yourself crazy. Because there are ALWAYS going to be people calling themselves poly and meaning that they want to fuck everything that moves without their partner knowing about it, just like there are ALWAYS going to be people running around calling themselves Master, when they clearly aren't even the Master of Using Spell Check Properly.
If a hobo on the street tells you he's a doctor, you just shrug your shoulders and move along, because it doesn't matter that he's probably not. But when a well-dressed stranger walks into the doctor's office to give you a rectal exam, you've probably already checked to make sure he has the appropriate degrees. So let the fluff call itself what it will (because even if you could get them to change, they'll come up with something new that will annoy you), and focus on the people that matter to you specifically.

[info]edwarddain

October 23 2005, 17:56:23 UTC 6 years ago

I basically agree with you.

Labels are dangerous - especially when they are misused. And I do have a responsibility as an educator and advocate to at least make an effort to make people's lives better.

Here's my point, I don't see anything wrong with the statement/belief/behavior "We have an open relationship" if all you want is sex with no strings attached. I have no problem with saying "I'm poly, but I'm really looking for a nother partner, I'm just looking to get laid tonight." Saying you are poly and (knowingly or unknowingly) not making it clear that you just want sex (or alternately just want a relationship) isn't ethical. And that's the real problem, more people define it and will buy books, read websites, etc that define it by relationship - not just ethical slutpersonship.

Plus, while your hobo/doctor example is great - I'm not entirely sure how applicable it is to non-mongamy/polyamory. How exactly does one establish the credentials of the polyamorous person? And we have yet to even touch on people who describe themselves as poly, know it means relationship, and figure it's just easier to get laid if they do lie.

Quite honestly, if you read The Ethical Slut in a context of other polyamorous material (as well as the other texts of the authors), it's pretty hard to make the leap to "just sex" - there is a tacit assumption of at least a casual relationship by the authors. But that is not the message that many within the BDSM community seems to be taking away from the text.

So that's what I advocate - not just the assumption of a convenient label, but education on what the heck "responsible non-monogamy" means! The shorthand is short-circuiting the goal.

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]st_andrews_girl

October 23 2005, 16:11:34 UTC 6 years ago

Side note: I do actually feel that you are one of the few people qualified to comment on what terms within BDSM and general kink should actually mean. But I still feel labels are dangerous.

[info]edwarddain

October 23 2005, 17:57:52 UTC 6 years ago

I think that's a compliment...

;-)

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]night101owl

October 23 2005, 22:46:46 UTC 6 years ago

This in turn leads to such nonsensical statements as "I'm poly, but my partner isn't."

For a significant amount of time, my girlfriend was poly (in that she had three serious relationships-- with me, another girlfriend, and her wife) but I wasn't (because I didn't want any other relationships).

I wasn't exactly monogamous, in that I played with others, but I didn't have sex with others. I just didn't have the emotional energy to do a whole lot. Recently, that's changed, and I've become poly, too. I see "polyamorous" as a descriptive term rather than an identification, though, so I expect that there are a lot of people open to being polyamorous (and having multiple relationships), even though they are only in one relationship at the moment. That's not really being poly-- just poly-hopeful, maybe.

I'm curious, though, that when I see the argument that "polyamory" should only signify multiple relationships and not multiple sex partners, where you draw the line. What makes a relationship romantic enough to be "amorous" as opposed to merely sexual? And if you just meet someone and are just starting to date them-- how many dates before you're boyfriends or girlfriends or boyfriend/girlfriend enough for it to be a relationship? Out in the straight & mono-valuing world, you're not boyfriend/girlfriend until you have that discussion about not wanting to see other people, but if you're looking for a polyamorous relationship, you don't use that signifier.

I'm not challenging what you've posted, because to a large extent I agree. And what's more, I do have a serious bone to pick with people who say they are looking for a long-term relationship(s) when they're just looking to get laid. It's just that while you touched on the fact that "polyamory" typically embraces a wide variety of relationships, you're still drawing some lines-- excluding brief relationships (3 months? 1 week? 1 weekend?), or maybe even fuckbuddies? What if there's love, but not romance (best friends who are also fuck buddies)?

I think a line should be drawn for the sake of definition, but I'm not sure where I'd draw it. And since I don't believe in instant-love, I need to figure out where I'd include "dating" in defining what a relationship is, if "relationship" is something that needs to be defined.

[info]edwarddain

October 23 2005, 23:57:37 UTC 6 years ago

I don't believe that I have said that poly should only mark multiple relationships. Or that it should only mark "love" (another heavily loaded term). I have said that the hallmark of poly is that a relationship is involved, and that sex is not the marker of a relationship.

Sex does not equal a relationship, and a relationship doesn't equal sex.

Honestly I think that even "casual dating" falls into the realm of relationship. There might be an argument as to how "serious" a relationship it is, but it is undeniably a relationship. Friendship is a relationship, lover is a relationship, but a one-night stand is not a relationship. As you basically touch on, I think that it is partially a matter of attitude towards partners and relationships overall. I think you can be poly, with an extended network, and at the same time be having casual sex outside of the network - and that this does not cause any inherent logical flaw in any of the interactions.

If I had to phrase it a different way - poly is a qualitative marker of emotional fidelity or intimacy with other partners beyond the norm of that individuals other relationships.

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]inki

October 27 2005, 01:49:35 UTC 6 years ago

Part One

Thanks for the amazing food for thought. If you ever want to chat about this stuff in email, just let me know.

"I'm poly, but my partner isn't."

This statement is not particular to BDSM or even poly people lookin' to get down and messy. There's the whole "poly/mono" substrata of polyamory that seems to be taking off, complete with guides, like Tacit's excellent website.

You're running afoul of a subtle redefinition project here.

Consider monogamy in two pieces. "Me monogamy" is the desire to date, sleep with, or have a relationship with only one person. "You monogamy" is the desire to not have your lover doing any of these things with someone else. "Me monogamy" is generally coming from a more positive and self-aware place than "you monogamy", which is associated with jealousy and controlling behavior.

When mainstream types discuss monogamy, they generally lump these two together. However, any particular person will often only have one of these, even in the mainstream.

A person with "you monogamy" but not "me monogamy" wants their partner to stay faithful but often wants to stray themselves. This is a famously common double standard.

A person with "me monogamy" but not "you monogamy" is perfectly capable of dating a polyamorous person. If they do this, are they monogamous? Not according to the mainstream definition.

However, it is pretty easy to argue that the "me" part of monogamy is much more crucial than the "you" part. So we can say that these people are being monogamous in the way that matters most. And often, they will identify as monogamous to make their desires clear.

In pulling this self-identification trick, poly/mono couples are engaged the interesting and fairly unique project of redefining monogamy, from the mainstream definition to "me monogamy". This drives plenty of people batty, of course, including poly people, because it is in fact a redefinition, and one that is not generally admitted to.

But if we step past the battiness, it becomes clear that this is a slick and effective strategy. Let me say it again: this is an offshoot of polyamory that is attempting to redefine what it means to be monogamous. For everyone. And it's a positive redefinition too: note that it axes jealousy.

Even better, it works. There's this new sort of monogamy that crops up on the edge of poly communities, one that is more concerned with what a person wants and less concerned with keeping control of one's partner.

[info]edwarddain

October 27 2005, 22:30:09 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Part One

Marvelous point! On the you/me monogamy...

Hmmm...

I also accept the premise that this is a positive off-shoot of polyamory, not monogamy. The problem arises when people settle for shorthand and forgt about the communication part.

Very well written!

Anonymous

6 years ago

[info]greylady

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]inki

6 years ago

[info]greylady

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

5 years ago

[info]greylady

5 years ago

[info]edwarddain

5 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]greylady

6 years ago

[info]kinksville

5 years ago

[info]inki

October 27 2005, 01:54:24 UTC 6 years ago

Part Two

Sex vs Love

What we're running into here is simple. Romantic love is what I call "genitally attached". It is deeply connected in our minds with what is going on downstairs. This is a common technique of power: gender is genitally attached, along with LBGT and straight identities.

In fact, monogamy is genitally attached. We talk about monogamy as if it were a facet of relationships (and indeed it is), but there is only one condition for monogamy: rubbing genitals with only one person. It's a very physical definition.

This is key to certain forms of power in our culture. It means your genital actions can be controlled via social (i.e. relationship) concerns. It does something even sneakier: your genital actions tie you to a certain social reality. We see this readily with homosexuality - a guy can be straight and into women his whole life, but if he gets one blowjob from a man, all of a sudden people check for limp wrists and wonder where he's been hiding the Judy Garland collection.

Romantic love is also genitally attached. Its attachment is sex.

In other words, we fully expect one to produce the other, even in today's world of supposedly unattached sex. And because we believe, it actually happens that way. Sex is rarely without any form of attachment (though it is often quite fleeting), and romantic relationships almost always have a sexual component, even if they are not actually sexual. (Think sexual attraction, sex-like rituals, and so on.)

So as much as we like to think of sex and love as separate (for various historical and power-based reasons), when we deal with them they are usually mushed together heavily.

It is in this environment that we are trying to establish polyamory as somehow "really about relationships". We won't be able to do this, for a number of reasons. First, it's all mushed together. Second, polyamory is set up as resistance to monogamy, which has a focus on genital sex.

Third, one mechanism of monogamy enforcement is to decide that all nonmonogamous relationships must be some form of shallow sexual relating. It is this assumption that poly people are challenging when they say that polyamory is mostly about relationships. Challenging this mechanism this way is unfortunately not very successful, because it is backed up by the first two reasons.

This is why separating out the "I'm looking for a new relationship" from the "I'm looking for a good time" polyamorists is always going to be difficult or impossible. Polyamory, as resistance to monogamy, cannot just be about one or the other, and both sorts of people (and everyone in between) will flock to it.

The difference between polyamory and most other nonmonogamous movements is that polyamory operates in the relationship realm as well as the sex realm. This sets it up as a more direct challenge to monogamy, and gets it past a major hurdle. So we should definitely retain this understanding of polyamory as involving relationships. I think a lot of poly people are very scared of losing this connection, for various good reasons.

However, polyamory is inevitably about the sex in certain ways. Because it is borrowing tropes from monogamy, it is also genitally based, and therefore, is a sexual matter as well as a relationship matter. The Ethical Slut focused a bit on the sexual angle because it is the most direct point of resistance. This is one reason the book is so popular.

To illustrate what I'm saying, consider the rash of "platonic love" poly relationships out there. This is a good trend, that is trying to redefine love to not include sex. Polyamory, as a site of resistance to monogamy (and relationship structures in general), makes this possible.

(continued on ... post 3!)

[info]edwarddain

October 27 2005, 22:42:04 UTC 6 years ago

Re: Part Two

*chuckle*

This is the reason why I write that the BDSM community is functionally non-monogamous for the most part. I find the difference between sex and a scene when it comes to functional emotional entanglements to be a minor one - in fact the only reason why sex is more problematic because of the general societal confusion between sexual intimacy and emotional intimacy - which of course slides neatly into commitment! I mean, if we're intimate sexually then we're a couple. Of course? That physical connection makes us soul-mates...

Man I need to go into my sacred sexuality rant at this point. But I'll refrain.

Bah.

[info]inki

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]inki

6 years ago

Anonymous

6 years ago

[info]inki

6 years ago

[info]inki

October 27 2005, 01:54:45 UTC 6 years ago


However, these relationships are less likely to constitute strong resistance to monogamy than non-platonic polyamory, because quite a few of the people in them are only having sex with one person. So because the sex is excluded, they become oddly more monogamous.

So we're in kind of a bind here. If we admit that polyamory is sexual , we get tarred as being a bunch of cheap sluts who don't know love, and who will settle down as soon as this phase is over. If we actually practice polyamory where sex is not mandatory, we are seen as ... monogamous. Monogamous if you do, monogamous if you don't.

Okay, what is LOGO? I gotta know.

(I haven't even gotten into the connections between BDSM and poly. But I gotta go do something else.)

=)
Pepper

PS. Livejournal sucks my butt.

[info]edwarddain

October 27 2005, 22:49:26 UTC 6 years ago

I have to admit that I have spent a great deal of time thinking about platonic polyamory - I have absolutely no problem with it and it actually encapsulates a far more healthy model of interpersonal dynamics and intrapsychic understanding than anything else.

Hmmm...

LOGO is the MTV gay channel that I get - full of all sorts of fun shows. It's surprisingly enjoyable.

;-)

(Oh, and some people like having their butt sucked, licked, kissed, whatever...)

[info]inki

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]inki

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]edwarddain

6 years ago

[info]rue_lily

December 12 2005, 04:48:34 UTC 6 years ago

Please don't discuss it only via email. I'm enjoying the discourse.

[info]edwarddain

December 12 2005, 14:20:48 UTC 6 years ago

If you're looking for some excellent discussion check out [info]inki's LJ - there's some great stuff there.

I'm not nearly so well-spoken or erudite on the subject.

[info]truededication

January 9 2006, 06:13:02 UTC 6 years ago

I think poly is having a long term commitment to more than one partner. Otherwise it's really swinging or promiscuity. I have been 25 years with one partner and close to five with the other. The only other one left after three years--not my choice. It would be nice to have someone to replace her, but that is a very difficult equation to calculate. I wish there were more people to talk to this about . . . . Not many people seem to understand it. Thanks for posing the question. I wish I had seen it earlier . . . .

[info]edwarddain

January 9 2006, 15:08:28 UTC 6 years ago

No problem!

[info]cyclothemia

October 2 2006, 17:33:56 UTC 5 years ago

actually-

Another quick point-
Safer sex and AIDS volunteers who work with Latino men tend to get trained to use the phrase, "do you have sex with men?" instead of "are you gay?". In their culture, tops are straight, bottoms are gay.
Hence why I find it important to ask "what does that mean to you?"

As it relates to polyamory... I'm polyamorous, interested in a relationship outside of my primary one. My partner is not monogamous, but is also not polyamorous... he enjoys sex with other people, sometimes, but isn't interested in another relationship. With a lot of consideration and discussion, we've worked out a system that works for us, and gets our needs met. We could, then, say that I'm poly, and my partner is not, and be accurate. However, since I find that our scenerio isn't usual, I also like to double check with the primary partner if I hear that phrase. If it's true, then they won't mind if I double check. Saves a lot of trouble and drama down the line.

[info]edwarddain

October 2 2006, 18:29:17 UTC 5 years ago

Re: actually-

Agreed. And the whole social construct of "gay" vs. "I have sex with men aka 'down-low'" is one I semi-regularly get into arguments with a couple of gay professors about. The funny thing is that I think I've "won" at this point.

The whole "I'm mono and my parter is poly" is problematic because it strikes at the heart of US individualism. Are you defined by your self-identity? Or are you defiend by your group? More importantly, in an identity defiend by the style of relationship, how can you not be defined around the group to a degree. It's even more problematic because the argument over what exactly constitutes a "relationship" is highly muddled in non-monogamous relationship networks - and the mismatch of identity and behavior can quickly become apparent.

[info]backrow

October 2 2006, 19:48:15 UTC 5 years ago

I am also an activist and educator, and I have some things to say about your post.

So polyfuckery is ok, but polyamory isn’t? Perhaps the problem with the misuse of the two words lies with you, and not with the words or the concepts they describe. Many people fuck other partners without maintaining any intimacy, but for you to disparage the concept without (apparently) understanding it or believing in it, is a real shame. Especially unfortunate because you style yourself as a mentor, and a mentor needs real strength, not cynicism.

I think you ought to clarify your biases at the beginning of your essay. You are a poly snob, and because you are an activist and educator, people will look up to you for guidance. You owe them a rather more unbiased discussion than you seem to be giving here.

You seem to enjoy making judgments: I know plenty of people who are poly, and whose partner isn’t. Of course there will always be plenty of people who just want to get laid without making any investment. Will they misuse a new word, thinking it allows them a pass? Of course. But if you are such an advocate and educator, people who look up to you deserve a wiser, less cynical look.

You probably have not ever met anyone in the BDSM community who enjoys kink, but whose partner doesn’t. I know a few of them. Many of them feel like they have to indulge in BDSM without letting their partners know, or live a lie and ignore that part of themselves. For a man interested in being a psychologist, I think you ought to display more understanding or insight into the problems kinky people face in dealing with straight/vanilla society.

Also, I agree, poly and non-monogamy are not synonymous. I hardly think that is groundbreaking knowledge. How come you don’t discuss the most important piece that differentiates them -- the whole notion of honest and ethical non-monogamy. I’m amazed no one else has challenged you on this. What make poly different than screwing around, is WE DON’T LIE ABOUT IT. Almost a third of The Ethical Slut deals with this topic. You relegate intimacy to a sentence or two at the end. Perhaps you ought to read some of the works of people like Wendy-O Matik, who has written powerfully on intimacy. As an educator, I would expect you would be interested in clarifying what is important in polyamory from what is not. You only muddy things, in my opinion.

In short, I think your essay does less to clarify things about poly for newcomers by making poly seem like another bullshit rationalization for cheating. If you are serious about being an advocate and teacher, people are going to believe your words, and when a serious ethical polyamorist comes along, they are going to disregard that person’s choice as being merely another lie, thanks to you.

[info]edwarddain

October 2 2006, 20:53:35 UTC 5 years ago

Excellent response.

So where do I say that engaging in polyamory is wrong? My quibble and rant is about saying polyamory when what is meant is "responsible non-monogamy." Hell, if they said polyfuckery I'd be fine with that as well (and I know a couple of people who do) - or swinging or sportfucking for that matter. I think that this is exactly what I said in the first paragraph.

Yes, in this particular case I'm being a poly snob (and [info]inki called me on it in the responses). I also think that you are mistaking this venue as being an "educational" one rather than a place to ask questions about hard topics and rant about crap that bothers the hell out of you (as this was the case). Yes, I'm being judgemental here but at the same time I think that as educators and activists there is a certain denial of that fact that we judge all the time, if even in passive voice (by what we choose to talk about and what we deem unworthy of discussion).

I've known a number of people over the years who were kinky and whose partners are not. Just like I know a number of people who are "poly" and whose partners are not. In most cases it has been a point of contention at one point or another. That doesn't mean that it can't work. In fact, I would suggest that the poly/mono mismatch has a better analog in two kinky folk who's kink doesn't match in the slightest. There's a shared sense of value around some ideal (which varies by couple I suspect) that binds them together in spite of differing values or desires. Unlike the essentially dishonest, uncommunicative (and very sad) situation that you describe.

In many respects I think you've missed the point of my complaint as it were. From my perspective (and observation) more harm comes from the mismatch of expectations in extended non-monogamous relationships ("polyamorous" or "polyfuckery") than by the actual mechanics involved in the network itself. What I also find questionable is the blurred boundaries of intimacy found in sexually monogamous couples who engage in BDSM with other folk and then get wrapped around the axle when bonds form - or when things blow up over intimate (but overtly non-sexual) bonds that have formed despite agreements to be "monogamous" - sort of letter of the law rather that spirit of the law arguments.

What I'm confused at in your own response is what seems to be a treatment of intimacy in a dichotomous fashion. Either you're intimate or you're not. I don't track this. I also challenge the assertion that non-monogamy means "honest and ethical" - it can mean that but it doesn't always mean that. Screwing around and casual sex in this context has nothing to do with being truthful or honest about the fact that you're doing - but with what you are looking in the interaction.

Please, continue the conversation. You have some excellent points, though I do think I've covered many of them in the responses below.

Could you clarify what you think is important in polyamory as opposed to responsible non-monogamy (of any sort)?

[info]backrow

5 years ago

[info]edwarddain

5 years ago

[info]muzikmaker21

October 4 2006, 14:28:51 UTC 5 years ago

You don't know me, but I found this via [info] and I give you a standing ovation.

[info]edwarddain

October 4 2006, 19:08:40 UTC 5 years ago

*bows*

Thank you!

[info]squire_liz

October 4 2006, 15:20:22 UTC 5 years ago

Ok, I totally agree with most everything you said. I am curious though, how would describe the situation most people refer to when they say "I'm poly and my partner isn't"

[info]edwarddain

October 4 2006, 19:36:23 UTC 5 years ago

A relationship?

:-) Honestly, we just don't have good language for this. Plus that doesn't begin to descibe it it's an open or closed relationship, the size of the intimate network, etc. There is little good "shorthand" for non-monogamous relationships.

Depending on what the actual relationship network looked like it may be no more of an "issue" than when one partner is bisexual or kinky and the other isn't. Trying to pigeonhole non-monogamous intimate networks into the terminology of standard families generally fails badly.

[info]hartmans

October 4 2006, 17:48:29 UTC 5 years ago

"I'm poly but my partner isn't," seems like a perfectly fine
description for someone who is poly but who has chosen to be in a
monogamous relationship--perhaps because they value that partner over
the ability to have multiple relationships at the same time. But
agree with the rest of the rant.

[info]edwarddain

October 4 2006, 19:44:08 UTC 5 years ago

I would certainly agree, my complaint is not with those people. It's with the people who are using "poly" as the code for "so I think it is ok to sleep around" - especially since so often the other partner doesn't seem to be around to confirm that they are ok with it as well...

As I've said elsewhere (or maybe in the comments here) both my partner and myself identified as poly for a multi-year period where we didn't see anyone else - because we wanted to focus on one another and strongly invest in our relationship without distraction.

In any case, thanks for commenting!

Anonymous

October 8 2006, 14:44:35 UTC 5 years ago

"I'm poly, but my partner isn't."

This statement is true for me, but I don't use it as a pick-up line. Some of us just continue to live monogamously.

[info]edwarddain

October 8 2006, 16:40:26 UTC 5 years ago

Re: "I'm poly, but my partner isn't."

Many people do - as I've said elsewhere my partner and myself both identify as poly and for a time lived a monogamous lifestyle in order to concentrate on each other. I know many other people who've made similar choices.

As a statement of identity it makes far more sense than as a statement of behaviour, let alone a statment about the relationship network.
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